Discussion Dates: Friday 20th March to Friday 3rd April
(sorry that every question is question 1 - but I am having trouble changing it and don't have time to fiddle around with it. Will come back to it if I have time - for now I just want to get the questions up and going)
What would you rate this book out of 10 and why?
Mel : 9/10 - I really loved this book. I felt like I was 'inside' it totally. A number of great characters and engrossing story lines. I just loved the sections when Ursula was younger and all the family was together (probably because I thought the mother was a fantastic character). I knew that I was engrossed as I was so relieved when she actually 'lived again' yet of course I knew that was going to be the case. I was slightly disappointed with the section with Hitler and Eva Braun as it was a bit too far fetched, but the scene in Germany where Ursula killed her daughter and committed suicide haunted me in a way that none of her other 'deaths' did.
Rachel: 10/10 - At the risk of being biased, I LOVED this book, I became utterly enthralled in it in fact. Stylistically, I just thought it was so clever. Atkinson is able to present us with a range of interesting characters and contexts, yet by using the same character, she overcomes the need to introduce these different 'characters'. Like you Mel, I loved the earlier section with Sylvie and her family, but for very macabre reasons! The constant torture of experiencing one child's tragic death after another alongside Sylvie was unbearable at times. I'm not embarrassed to admit that Teddy's death from influenza and, like you Mel, Ursula's desperate decision to end her own and her daughter's lives, both had me sobbing into my pillow! The point that Atkinson is making about the fragility of life, the vulnerability of children, the potential for catastrophe really hit a chord with me. The terrible 'what ifs?' of life. Ultimately I felt there was something wonderfully and tragically human about this story, conveyed through a very skilful and effective structure.
Lynne: 9/10 - I raced through this book and loved it. I loved the way the story kept reinventing itself. I loved that so much changed, yet certain things remained the same (Sylvie, Fox Corner, the debonair dad, another pet dog etc). I barracked for Ursula so much because I never knew when she might die, and since she died so often, I always seemed to relish whatever she did/said, no matter how small. I thought she was fascinating. Just different enough to make her intriguing, not an anomaly within her genteel surroundings. I found the family very believable, their domesticity, their relationships, the rhythm of their life - so very English too. Plus this book spanned what is for me the most interesting 50 years in modern history, across the 2 world wars, so I was bound to be into this!
Jane: 8/10 - Kate Atkinson is one of my favourite authors. I love her books because they are always compelling, clever, and darkly witty. I liked this, her latest, but not perhaps as much as her other works. Maybe a little TOO clever, though I do admire how she always experiments with traditional structure and this is perhaps the most experimental yet. Life After Life is highly imaginative and I (like you Lynne) was also taken with the idea of the 'what ifs?' of life.
Gen: 6/10- Sorry to disagree but I didn't like it very much. Maybe it was to do with the fact that it was the first book I read on my new e-reader, which I find makes it very easy to glaze over and skip ahead when it all got a bit repetitive... like Jane I found it a bit too clever and also a bit too archly 'writing about writing'. Although definitely it is an interesting idea to think about all the chance things that happen or don't and how profoundly lives can be changed in an instance...
Lara: 9/10 - I have recommended this book numerous times during and after reading it. I got into it from the very beginning and couldn't put it down. Sure, the structure was "clever", yet I felt that Atkinson made it her own and did it well when it could have gotten too repetitive. I liked Ursula and thought her relationship with her family - in particular her sister and her mother - was realistic and interesting. Finally, like Lynne, I loved re-living this period of history and for me it was fun to know many of the places first hand that were depicted in the book. I enjoyed the Blitz scenes as well as the early family scenes, and I think it is notable how the mother/daughter scene in Germany struck so many of us - I was crying too. I have one very good friend who told me she "absolutely hated it" though -- mainly because of the structure and the fact that she never felt like she progressed....but I love thinking about how life could have been different and how amazingly close we are to tragedy (and therefore how lucky we are to be around so we should make the best of it!).
Lucy - 7/10. When I first started the book I found it very hard to get into and began getting a little annoyed but the repetitive nature but once I got going I loved it. I loved how she could explore ways that the characters changed with each circumstance. Sylvie was always slightly tinged for me after her reaction to Ursula's rape and pregnancy. How different their relationship turned out from that event made me feel how fickle and perhaps shallow sylvie was - and we never heard more about her affair did we?
Michelle - 5/10. I loved the premise of the book and the way the story was told, with Ursula's life slowly exploring every bend and twist. However I felt it was all trying to be too much with the Blitz, Nazi Youth, killing Hitler etc etc. Those sections went on in such depth they were like mini-novels within the novel and all I wanted to do was rush through them so I could get back to Ursula's life path. Kind of like sticking the hollywood blockbuster action movie bits in where they really didn't need to be. I really would have preferred the writer to stick more mundane stories so that the 'what-ifs' were given the chance to be the shining moments. Also, I can't say I ever really bonded with Ursula, not being told the story from her POV kept her at a distance from me. Maybe that was a good thing otherwise I probably would have cried every time she died and then accused the book of being a tearjerker!
Do you think Ursula ever becomes completely conscious of her ability to relive and redo her lives? If so, at what point in the story do you think that happens? And what purpose do you think she sets for herself once she figures it out?
Mel: And this is why I should have written down some answers as soon as I finished reading the book (over Xmas) as now intricacies like this are lost to me.
Lynne: I'm not sure about 'reliving/redoing' consciously. She gets that feeing of dread, or some impending doom that sometimes spurs her into action, like pushing Bridget down the stairs so she can't go to London and therefore evades the Spanish flu. I don't know if she is conscious of the multitude of threads that her story/life takes on, but she must sense something before she turns 10 and starts therapy, because she talks openly about de ja vu with her therapist. I'm not sure if she deliberately tries to influence events from this point. I think she has a sixth sense that she sometimes taps into, but sometimes it escapes her which helps us all understand that things are often beyond our control. And while we're here, how strange was her therapist. Speaking to her as if she were wise beyond her years, trying to discuss complex philosophical theories and making no attempt to help her understand what she was feeling. Poor girl.
Lara: Good question. I guess I didn't think she consciously fully understood it, but agree that she certainly knew she was different and that she could influence the course of the future. Yes, the therapist was interesting....I feel like we've all had those relationships where there is an authority figure that isn't quite right, but you don't dislike him
Lucy - I think she does realise that she can consciously change things. It begins with just a feeling that spurs her into action but by the time she kills Hitler it is a very deliberate decision to take that course in life. And after she kills her daughter and herself we were told that something changed in her as that was the first time she had chosen death.
Do you think Ursula’s ability to relive her life over and over is a gift or a curse?
Mel: A gift considering how often she died! And was all this death a product of the times in which she lived? Lack of maternal medical care. Taboos around sex and violence and the ability to express one's self. Two world wars. etc..
Lynne: I don't believe it is Ursula's "ability", it is the author's ability and she hints at Ursula's complicity sometimes.
Lucy - I don't know about a gift or a curse but it certainly makes it very interesting reading and makes us consider all the decisions we make in our own lives and even helping us to be a little less judgemental of the reactions of others to decisions we make.
Small moments often have huge ramifications in Ursula’s life. Do you think certain moments are more crucial than others in the way Ursula’s life develops? Why, and which moments?
Mel: I agree with this statement. The way that she handles the friend of her brother's who tries to 'have his way' with her has huge ramifications on Ursula's life. Something about the actions of Ursula that leads to their maid either going or not going to London and catching the Spanish flu. And there is a moment during the Blitz that I want to recall but can't quite put on my finger on it as my memory of those scenes are all so covered in dust and rubble and despair that it is hard to tell them apart.
Rachel: I think the small moments are shown to have ramifications for ALL of the characters, not just Ursula. For example, the small decisions of other characters in the lead up to Nancy's murder have huge ramifications. Again, I think Atkinson unfolds this particular storyline so effectively - if only Nancy hadn't walked alone, the idea of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, Ursula coming face to face with the man who the reader immediately recognises as Nancy's would be attacker later on. If I had to pick one specific crucial moment for Ursula however, I would have to agree with you Mel - the different scenarios that lead to Ursula either being or not being violated by her brother's friend. The huge repercussions this has on Ursula's personality and later decisions is a powerful commentary on how long lasting and irrevocable the consequences of an attack like this can be on a victim. It genuinely saddened me to watch this intelligent and spirited character choose to marry a man such as Derek Oliphant and suffer his controlling and violent behaviour. I was almost urging her to die so that she could start afresh again into a life more fitting for her! And at the same time, it just made me think about all the victims of abuse who don't get that out, who don't have the opportunity to start afresh, who suffer a life 'unrealised'. Sorry, it's been a long day at work! I realise I;m being far too morose with my answers!
Lynne: I have to say that the American visitor that kissed her, which led to rape and the WORST life imaginable, compared to her being able to push him away and escape his attentions was the most memorable 'sliding door' for me. I was devastated to see the direction her life took after the incident on the back stairs. The horrific abortion, the deplorable husband and the domestic violence that followed all seemed like such a believable trajectory that I was sickened. As Rachel says, the damage was done and she was doomed to a life that was not worth living. To know that this happens to girls the world over is enough to spur one to activism of some kind.
Lucy - I guess in a way they all have ramifications but yes many change the trajectory of her life more. The earlier moments don't have such an affect but then we are never let into how the family's lives change after she dies - how pamela is for example after the childhood deaths. how Hugh reacts as Ursula definitely seems to be his favourite.
How does Atkinson portray gender throughout the story? How does she comment on the gender roles of this time period, and which characters challenge those roles—and how?
Lynne: I thought there was a fabulous array of strong women in this book that seemed to ignore the conservatism of the pre-WW2 years. Sylvie - though conservative was determined to live life they way she wanted, come what may. Izzie - rebellious, yet dependable when it came to a crisis. Pamela - fierce, honest, pragmatic, loyal. Ursula - a working woman, shagging a married man, or a hunky train driver, drinking, volunteering, surviving. Old Miss Woolf - the leader of the rescue unit, strong, stoic, indomitable. Amazing, all of them.
Lara: I think the variety of strong women in the book was refreshing and we need more of that. I loved Miss Woolf - exactly the woman you would want to be with in a crisis, but I liked that she had a very human side. Izzie, although the black sheep, came up with some of the best lines and provided Ursula much needed support at numerous times - she represented danger, adventure and definitely the unconventional. It was interesting to me how Sylvie and Izzie in some ways represented my grandmother and great-aunt in many ways.
How do the various relationships within the Todd family shape the story? What is the significance of maternal bonds and sibling bonds in the story?
Lynne: the family was the natural beginning and end for all versions of Ursula's life. Sylvie, for all her talk about motherhood, was quite aloof and I think the bond between the siblings (excluding Maurice, the arse!) were strongest. They were Ursula's life lines. Without Pamela and Teddy, and even baby Jimmy, I don't think Ursula would have clung to life so tightly. They sustained her through some bleak times, and returning to Fox Corner always seemed to be the goal.
How does Atkinson capture the terror and tragedy of the Blitz? How does war become its own character in the book?
Mel: War is a relentless character in the book. Just when you think that you can take a break from it for a spell, it is at you again, attacking you, killing someone/ many people. Everyone is touched by war. No one is left free from its clutches. Rachel: I genuinely found this section fascinating. I grew up in an area of the UK that was heavily bombed during the Blitz so I spent my entire teenage years at high school having to do research projects on what was destroyed etc but not once was I ever confronted with the actual reality of the manner in which people died. Some of the stories were horrific and I got the sense that they must have been documented accounts given to Atkinson during her own research for this section. And you're right Mel, it IS relentless. We are with Ursula in the cellar, we are with Ursula as part of the rescue mission outside of the cellar. Atkinson forces us to confront the war from every single angle. Baby Emil's hand...say no more.
Lynne: Mel and Rachel you are right, it is exhausting. Which must be the reality of it. Daily, hourly, constantly, grinding away at your patience and your courage. The fear, the death, the smell, the terror - all so well described that I felt like I was up to my armpits in it. Like being back on The Narrow Road to the Far North, going to bed each night knowing that I had to live through another night of bombings and fire and sirens and body parts was pretty taxing, but it had to be, or it would not have been plausible. I'm glad I read it because I always think of war being 'in the trenches' or among soldiers, and I never consider the civilians and the damage to lives and homes and towns and psyches.
Mel: I agree with you Lynne. Reading this made me realise that I hadn't read much about the Blitz before. Although I did do some supply teaching in a school in London that had been bombed heavily. It was a school during the war as well, and then a safety/evacuation point once the bombing began in ernest. There was a permanent memorial on the site for those who had lost their lives, and original gas masks and the like on display. Reading this section of the book made me think more deeply about the people who had lost their lives on the every spot that I attempt to babysit bored and boisterous Grade 5's in 2001.
Lara: One of Atkinson's strengths for me is that she really got me caring about baby Emil, the two old ladies, Ursula's daughter in Germany, whether Teddy lived, Miss Wolf, etc and if that can help bring home the personal realities of the effects of war on not just me, but others, then her book isn't just engaging, it opens up something much more meaningful in the reader.
Why do you think Atkinson portrayed one of Ursula’s lives in Germany, experiencing war and the bombing from the opposing side?
Mel: I thought that this section in Germany was very good, and I read Atkinson's rationale at the back of the book as to why she chose to include it. I returned to scenes in my mind of Germany during WW2 as I had created when I read "The Book Thief". I didn't however like the lead up to war in Germany as I mentioned previously - the hanging out with Eva Braun and Hitler. Rachel: I'm totally with you on this last point Mel, except for the fact that Atkinson manages to weave in the killer line (Burke?): 'All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good women to do nothing.' I can forgive the far fetched luncheons with Adolf and Eva, for the simple fact that I think Atkinson is raising the question that had Hitler been confronted by a head strong woman like Pamela or been questioned by his love interest Eva, would even a fraction of the tragedy that unfolded during WW2 still had happened?
Lynne: I thought it provided some balance to the book to see Ursula end up on the other side of the fence, so to speak, but like Mel I thought the scenes with Hitler et al a bit frivolous. I didn't need to experience war from the German perspective, I did that last year when I pushed through 900 pages of The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, but how was Atkinson supposed to know that I punished myself with that?
On page 379, Ursula faces a bleak end in Germany with her daughter, Frieda. She chooses death over life for the first time, saying, “Something had cracked and broken and the order of things had changed.” Is this a significant turning point to Ursula’s story? Do you think the end of this life affects her decisions in other lives that follow?
Lynne: no, and no. I don't think her lives are connected. I just think they show the possibilities, good and bad.
Life continues to restart over and over for Ursula and the Todd family, and outcomes vary greatly each time. What happens to the characters changes drastically in many of the versions. Do you feel the characters change just as drastically, in terms of who they are and what they are like? Or do you think they fundamentally stay the same? Ursula learns many things about life and its progression, but does she herself change over the course of the book?
Mel: I do think that Ursula does really stay the same person throughout the book, even though her life takes on such different roles and complexities. So too her older sister, even when bogged down with so many sons she retained her wit and pragmatic approach to life. The older brother was just a twat from start to finish. Which made me think about how siblings can just be so different and why that is. The clear distain that the mum had for he oldest son was funny to an extent but also troubling - did he turn out the way he did because he was made to feel like an outsider in the family or was he treated the way he was because he was always an outsider in the family?
Rache: I am going to respectfully disagree with you here Mel! Going back to our earlier point about Ursula's rape as a teenage girl, I think the consequences of this happening or not happening have huge and drastic ramifications on her as a character. The independent and head strong Ursula at the end of the novel I would argue, would never had developed. The shame and guilt felt by the Ursula who is attacked is carried through into every part of her life - she becomes a recluse, afraid to stand up for herself, ever dwindling choices... Perhaps we do fundamentally stay the same, retain the same potential, but judging by this book, life most definitely has the power to beat it out of you or bury potential till it disappears. There are so many different faces to Ursula - in the latter part of the book, I would concede that her strength and courage remain fundamentally the same. But her belief in herself could very easily have been knocked out of her altogether at a very early stage of life.
Lynne: See my answer to question 1 above. Oh, ha ha, they are all question one! Yes, different incidents bring huge changes to Ursula. I'm with Rachel, and think that pivotal moment when Ursula is overpowered by a man drastically changes her. And everything else Rachel said about that - thanks. On reflection though, I don't think the other characters change much throughout the book. Her family seems to be fairly dependable with their reactions to the various directions the stories take. Even while Ursula was in Germany married to a high ranking official, Pamela was still writing letters and displaying unwavering loyalty.
Lara: But isn't that part of why the book works? If the characters changed greatly, the effect wouldn't be as powerful. I think Ursula's core is the same, but she does change her outlook on life depending on what happens to her. In reality, everyone of course is going through this, but because the others stayed the same, you could see how she changed even more.
What are the biggest questions this book raised for you? How did it change the way you think about the course of your own life?
How is it possible to read this book and not be scared to step outside of the house?! If I choose this pizza topping compared to this pizza topping, which direction might my life now go?! Joking aside, I do feel the book raises questions about the significance of our decisions - big and small - that are best not dwelt upon for to long. I could easily be rendered frozen and entirely indecisive if I absorbed the lessons of this book too closely.
Lynne: Does that feeling of de ja vu, that we all sometimes feel, have some significance? What if we could understand why we sometimes feel like we have been/seen/done something before? If we understood the "signs" could we influence our future? Is our fate sealed, or can we re-make it? I have so many questions. I wish we were all in the same room so you could answer them for me.
Lara: Funny - I love reading this book and thinking about the twists and sliding doors...but not for too long. It becomes counter-productive in a hurry when its about you. You are where you are - now how are you going to make it better, etc. Still it makes for great reading and for me one of the most enjoyable reads of the bookclub.
Is there anything that you would like to ask or add about Life After Life?
When I grow up, could I pleased own a house like Fox Corner? Totally enamoured with the idea of orchards and cats and snow and log fires...
Lynne: So, who was Sylvie having an affair with? Was Ursula a spy or a public servant? If neither can be answered then I'll still be happy. Great book. I better hurry up and buy the next one....what is it, Americanah?
Gen: ... however I am loving reading Americanah (hard copy!)
Lara: when are we getting together over that glass of wine? I was telling someone about the book club last week and she asked if we would ever all meet up. Fun to think about...maybe in one of our many lives ;-)! I'm also enjoying Americanah (a good and different shift, but still strong-female focused which is fine by me)....and I watched Wild on the plane to Arizona. Should I still read Wild the book? Also, today when I actually had almost enough time to read the NYTimes (Monday edition - Sunday wasn't going to happen with the girls even on vacation), I saw a book advertised called, "Cancer: The Emperor of All Maladies". Right now, I don't know about you guys, but I know WAY too many people who have been affected by this disease, so that's next on my list. Maybe if I learn more about it I will feel ever so slightly more able to deal with it. Not sure, but worth a shot. For now though, back to Nigeria!
Mel: What joy to think of us all in the one room. And I know that I am the lucky one, as I get to see most of you every now and again - Rache all the time and Sharyn this afternoon (!!!!) as her family are holidaying in Singapore. Maybe if we are still going at this in a decade we should make it a priority to arrange a book club get together! Lara - as for Wild - I thought that it was just ok. Her achievement of completing the walk is pretty great, but I thought that as a book it was pretty repetitive and a bit boring in places.
(sorry that every question is question 1 - but I am having trouble changing it and don't have time to fiddle around with it. Will come back to it if I have time - for now I just want to get the questions up and going)
Mel : 9/10 - I really loved this book. I felt like I was 'inside' it totally. A number of great characters and engrossing story lines. I just loved the sections when Ursula was younger and all the family was together (probably because I thought the mother was a fantastic character). I knew that I was engrossed as I was so relieved when she actually 'lived again' yet of course I knew that was going to be the case. I was slightly disappointed with the section with Hitler and Eva Braun as it was a bit too far fetched, but the scene in Germany where Ursula killed her daughter and committed suicide haunted me in a way that none of her other 'deaths' did.
Rachel: 10/10 - At the risk of being biased, I LOVED this book, I became utterly enthralled in it in fact. Stylistically, I just thought it was so clever. Atkinson is able to present us with a range of interesting characters and contexts, yet by using the same character, she overcomes the need to introduce these different 'characters'. Like you Mel, I loved the earlier section with Sylvie and her family, but for very macabre reasons! The constant torture of experiencing one child's tragic death after another alongside Sylvie was unbearable at times. I'm not embarrassed to admit that Teddy's death from influenza and, like you Mel, Ursula's desperate decision to end her own and her daughter's lives, both had me sobbing into my pillow! The point that Atkinson is making about the fragility of life, the vulnerability of children, the potential for catastrophe really hit a chord with me. The terrible 'what ifs?' of life. Ultimately I felt there was something wonderfully and tragically human about this story, conveyed through a very skilful and effective structure.
Lynne: 9/10 - I raced through this book and loved it. I loved the way the story kept reinventing itself. I loved that so much changed, yet certain things remained the same (Sylvie, Fox Corner, the debonair dad, another pet dog etc). I barracked for Ursula so much because I never knew when she might die, and since she died so often, I always seemed to relish whatever she did/said, no matter how small. I thought she was fascinating. Just different enough to make her intriguing, not an anomaly within her genteel surroundings. I found the family very believable, their domesticity, their relationships, the rhythm of their life - so very English too. Plus this book spanned what is for me the most interesting 50 years in modern history, across the 2 world wars, so I was bound to be into this!
Jane: 8/10 - Kate Atkinson is one of my favourite authors. I love her books because they are always compelling, clever, and darkly witty. I liked this, her latest, but not perhaps as much as her other works. Maybe a little TOO clever, though I do admire how she always experiments with traditional structure and this is perhaps the most experimental yet. Life After Life is highly imaginative and I (like you Lynne) was also taken with the idea of the 'what ifs?' of life.
Gen: 6/10- Sorry to disagree but I didn't like it very much. Maybe it was to do with the fact that it was the first book I read on my new e-reader, which I find makes it very easy to glaze over and skip ahead when it all got a bit repetitive... like Jane I found it a bit too clever and also a bit too archly 'writing about writing'. Although definitely it is an interesting idea to think about all the chance things that happen or don't and how profoundly lives can be changed in an instance...
Lara: 9/10 - I have recommended this book numerous times during and after reading it. I got into it from the very beginning and couldn't put it down. Sure, the structure was "clever", yet I felt that Atkinson made it her own and did it well when it could have gotten too repetitive. I liked Ursula and thought her relationship with her family - in particular her sister and her mother - was realistic and interesting. Finally, like Lynne, I loved re-living this period of history and for me it was fun to know many of the places first hand that were depicted in the book. I enjoyed the Blitz scenes as well as the early family scenes, and I think it is notable how the mother/daughter scene in Germany struck so many of us - I was crying too. I have one very good friend who told me she "absolutely hated it" though -- mainly because of the structure and the fact that she never felt like she progressed....but I love thinking about how life could have been different and how amazingly close we are to tragedy (and therefore how lucky we are to be around so we should make the best of it!).
Lucy - 7/10. When I first started the book I found it very hard to get into and began getting a little annoyed but the repetitive nature but once I got going I loved it. I loved how she could explore ways that the characters changed with each circumstance. Sylvie was always slightly tinged for me after her reaction to Ursula's rape and pregnancy. How different their relationship turned out from that event made me feel how fickle and perhaps shallow sylvie was - and we never heard more about her affair did we?
Michelle - 5/10. I loved the premise of the book and the way the story was told, with Ursula's life slowly exploring every bend and twist. However I felt it was all trying to be too much with the Blitz, Nazi Youth, killing Hitler etc etc. Those sections went on in such depth they were like mini-novels within the novel and all I wanted to do was rush through them so I could get back to Ursula's life path. Kind of like sticking the hollywood blockbuster action movie bits in where they really didn't need to be. I really would have preferred the writer to stick more mundane stories so that the 'what-ifs' were given the chance to be the shining moments. Also, I can't say I ever really bonded with Ursula, not being told the story from her POV kept her at a distance from me. Maybe that was a good thing otherwise I probably would have cried every time she died and then accused the book of being a tearjerker!
Mel: And this is why I should have written down some answers as soon as I finished reading the book (over Xmas) as now intricacies like this are lost to me.
Lynne: I'm not sure about 'reliving/redoing' consciously. She gets that feeing of dread, or some impending doom that sometimes spurs her into action, like pushing Bridget down the stairs so she can't go to London and therefore evades the Spanish flu. I don't know if she is conscious of the multitude of threads that her story/life takes on, but she must sense something before she turns 10 and starts therapy, because she talks openly about de ja vu with her therapist. I'm not sure if she deliberately tries to influence events from this point. I think she has a sixth sense that she sometimes taps into, but sometimes it escapes her which helps us all understand that things are often beyond our control. And while we're here, how strange was her therapist. Speaking to her as if she were wise beyond her years, trying to discuss complex philosophical theories and making no attempt to help her understand what she was feeling. Poor girl.
Lara: Good question. I guess I didn't think she consciously fully understood it, but agree that she certainly knew she was different and that she could influence the course of the future. Yes, the therapist was interesting....I feel like we've all had those relationships where there is an authority figure that isn't quite right, but you don't dislike him
Lucy - I think she does realise that she can consciously change things. It begins with just a feeling that spurs her into action but by the time she kills Hitler it is a very deliberate decision to take that course in life. And after she kills her daughter and herself we were told that something changed in her as that was the first time she had chosen death.
Mel: A gift considering how often she died! And was all this death a product of the times in which she lived? Lack of maternal medical care. Taboos around sex and violence and the ability to express one's self. Two world wars. etc..
Lynne: I don't believe it is Ursula's "ability", it is the author's ability and she hints at Ursula's complicity sometimes.
Lucy - I don't know about a gift or a curse but it certainly makes it very interesting reading and makes us consider all the decisions we make in our own lives and even helping us to be a little less judgemental of the reactions of others to decisions we make.
- Small moments often have huge ramifications in Ursula’s life. Do you think certain moments are more crucial than others in the way Ursula’s life develops? Why, and which moments?
Mel: I agree with this statement. The way that she handles the friend of her brother's who tries to 'have his way' with her has huge ramifications on Ursula's life. Something about the actions of Ursula that leads to their maid either going or not going to London and catching the Spanish flu. And there is a moment during the Blitz that I want to recall but can't quite put on my finger on it as my memory of those scenes are all so covered in dust and rubble and despair that it is hard to tell them apart.Rachel: I think the small moments are shown to have ramifications for ALL of the characters, not just Ursula. For example, the small decisions of other characters in the lead up to Nancy's murder have huge ramifications. Again, I think Atkinson unfolds this particular storyline so effectively - if only Nancy hadn't walked alone, the idea of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, Ursula coming face to face with the man who the reader immediately recognises as Nancy's would be attacker later on. If I had to pick one specific crucial moment for Ursula however, I would have to agree with you Mel - the different scenarios that lead to Ursula either being or not being violated by her brother's friend. The huge repercussions this has on Ursula's personality and later decisions is a powerful commentary on how long lasting and irrevocable the consequences of an attack like this can be on a victim. It genuinely saddened me to watch this intelligent and spirited character choose to marry a man such as Derek Oliphant and suffer his controlling and violent behaviour. I was almost urging her to die so that she could start afresh again into a life more fitting for her! And at the same time, it just made me think about all the victims of abuse who don't get that out, who don't have the opportunity to start afresh, who suffer a life 'unrealised'. Sorry, it's been a long day at work! I realise I;m being far too morose with my answers!
Lynne: I have to say that the American visitor that kissed her, which led to rape and the WORST life imaginable, compared to her being able to push him away and escape his attentions was the most memorable 'sliding door' for me. I was devastated to see the direction her life took after the incident on the back stairs. The horrific abortion, the deplorable husband and the domestic violence that followed all seemed like such a believable trajectory that I was sickened. As Rachel says, the damage was done and she was doomed to a life that was not worth living. To know that this happens to girls the world over is enough to spur one to activism of some kind.
Lucy - I guess in a way they all have ramifications but yes many change the trajectory of her life more. The earlier moments don't have such an affect but then we are never let into how the family's lives change after she dies - how pamela is for example after the childhood deaths. how Hugh reacts as Ursula definitely seems to be his favourite.
Lynne: I thought there was a fabulous array of strong women in this book that seemed to ignore the conservatism of the pre-WW2 years. Sylvie - though conservative was determined to live life they way she wanted, come what may. Izzie - rebellious, yet dependable when it came to a crisis. Pamela - fierce, honest, pragmatic, loyal. Ursula - a working woman, shagging a married man, or a hunky train driver, drinking, volunteering, surviving. Old Miss Woolf - the leader of the rescue unit, strong, stoic, indomitable. Amazing, all of them.
Lara: I think the variety of strong women in the book was refreshing and we need more of that. I loved Miss Woolf - exactly the woman you would want to be with in a crisis, but I liked that she had a very human side. Izzie, although the black sheep, came up with some of the best lines and provided Ursula much needed support at numerous times - she represented danger, adventure and definitely the unconventional. It was interesting to me how Sylvie and Izzie in some ways represented my grandmother and great-aunt in many ways.
- How do the various relationships within the Todd family shape the story? What is the significance of maternal bonds and sibling bonds in the story?
Lynne: the family was the natural beginning and end for all versions of Ursula's life. Sylvie, for all her talk about motherhood, was quite aloof and I think the bond between the siblings (excluding Maurice, the arse!) were strongest. They were Ursula's life lines. Without Pamela and Teddy, and even baby Jimmy, I don't think Ursula would have clung to life so tightly. They sustained her through some bleak times, and returning to Fox Corner always seemed to be the goal.- How does Atkinson capture the terror and tragedy of the Blitz? How does war become its own character in the book?
Mel: War is a relentless character in the book. Just when you think that you can take a break from it for a spell, it is at you again, attacking you, killing someone/ many people. Everyone is touched by war. No one is left free from its clutches.Rachel: I genuinely found this section fascinating. I grew up in an area of the UK that was heavily bombed during the Blitz so I spent my entire teenage years at high school having to do research projects on what was destroyed etc but not once was I ever confronted with the actual reality of the manner in which people died. Some of the stories were horrific and I got the sense that they must have been documented accounts given to Atkinson during her own research for this section. And you're right Mel, it IS relentless. We are with Ursula in the cellar, we are with Ursula as part of the rescue mission outside of the cellar. Atkinson forces us to confront the war from every single angle. Baby Emil's hand...say no more.
Lynne: Mel and Rachel you are right, it is exhausting. Which must be the reality of it. Daily, hourly, constantly, grinding away at your patience and your courage. The fear, the death, the smell, the terror - all so well described that I felt like I was up to my armpits in it. Like being back on The Narrow Road to the Far North, going to bed each night knowing that I had to live through another night of bombings and fire and sirens and body parts was pretty taxing, but it had to be, or it would not have been plausible. I'm glad I read it because I always think of war being 'in the trenches' or among soldiers, and I never consider the civilians and the damage to lives and homes and towns and psyches.
Mel: I agree with you Lynne. Reading this made me realise that I hadn't read much about the Blitz before. Although I did do some supply teaching in a school in London that had been bombed heavily. It was a school during the war as well, and then a safety/evacuation point once the bombing began in ernest. There was a permanent memorial on the site for those who had lost their lives, and original gas masks and the like on display. Reading this section of the book made me think more deeply about the people who had lost their lives on the every spot that I attempt to babysit bored and boisterous Grade 5's in 2001.
Lara: One of Atkinson's strengths for me is that she really got me caring about baby Emil, the two old ladies, Ursula's daughter in Germany, whether Teddy lived, Miss Wolf, etc and if that can help bring home the personal realities of the effects of war on not just me, but others, then her book isn't just engaging, it opens up something much more meaningful in the reader.
- Why do you think Atkinson portrayed one of Ursula’s lives in Germany, experiencing war and the bombing from the opposing side?
Mel: I thought that this section in Germany was very good, and I read Atkinson's rationale at the back of the book as to why she chose to include it. I returned to scenes in my mind of Germany during WW2 as I had created when I read "The Book Thief". I didn't however like the lead up to war in Germany as I mentioned previously - the hanging out with Eva Braun and Hitler.Rachel: I'm totally with you on this last point Mel, except for the fact that Atkinson manages to weave in the killer line (Burke?): 'All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good women to do nothing.' I can forgive the far fetched luncheons with Adolf and Eva, for the simple fact that I think Atkinson is raising the question that had Hitler been confronted by a head strong woman like Pamela or been questioned by his love interest Eva, would even a fraction of the tragedy that unfolded during WW2 still had happened?
Lynne: I thought it provided some balance to the book to see Ursula end up on the other side of the fence, so to speak, but like Mel I thought the scenes with Hitler et al a bit frivolous. I didn't need to experience war from the German perspective, I did that last year when I pushed through 900 pages of The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, but how was Atkinson supposed to know that I punished myself with that?
- On page 379, Ursula faces a bleak end in Germany with her daughter, Frieda. She chooses death over life for the first time, saying, “Something had cracked and broken and the order of things had changed.” Is this a significant turning point to Ursula’s story? Do you think the end of this life affects her decisions in other lives that follow?
Lynne: no, and no. I don't think her lives are connected. I just think they show the possibilities, good and bad.- Life continues to restart over and over for Ursula and the Todd family, and outcomes vary greatly each time. What happens to the characters changes drastically in many of the versions. Do you feel the characters change just as drastically, in terms of who they are and what they are like? Or do you think they fundamentally stay the same? Ursula learns many things about life and its progression, but does she herself change over the course of the book?
Mel: I do think that Ursula does really stay the same person throughout the book, even though her life takes on such different roles and complexities. So too her older sister, even when bogged down with so many sons she retained her wit and pragmatic approach to life. The older brother was just a twat from start to finish. Which made me think about how siblings can just be so different and why that is. The clear distain that the mum had for he oldest son was funny to an extent but also troubling - did he turn out the way he did because he was made to feel like an outsider in the family or was he treated the way he was because he was always an outsider in the family?Rache: I am going to respectfully disagree with you here Mel! Going back to our earlier point about Ursula's rape as a teenage girl, I think the consequences of this happening or not happening have huge and drastic ramifications on her as a character. The independent and head strong Ursula at the end of the novel I would argue, would never had developed. The shame and guilt felt by the Ursula who is attacked is carried through into every part of her life - she becomes a recluse, afraid to stand up for herself, ever dwindling choices... Perhaps we do fundamentally stay the same, retain the same potential, but judging by this book, life most definitely has the power to beat it out of you or bury potential till it disappears. There are so many different faces to Ursula - in the latter part of the book, I would concede that her strength and courage remain fundamentally the same. But her belief in herself could very easily have been knocked out of her altogether at a very early stage of life.
Lynne: See my answer to question 1 above. Oh, ha ha, they are all question one! Yes, different incidents bring huge changes to Ursula. I'm with Rachel, and think that pivotal moment when Ursula is overpowered by a man drastically changes her. And everything else Rachel said about that - thanks. On reflection though, I don't think the other characters change much throughout the book. Her family seems to be fairly dependable with their reactions to the various directions the stories take. Even while Ursula was in Germany married to a high ranking official, Pamela was still writing letters and displaying unwavering loyalty.
Lara: But isn't that part of why the book works? If the characters changed greatly, the effect wouldn't be as powerful. I think Ursula's core is the same, but she does change her outlook on life depending on what happens to her. In reality, everyone of course is going through this, but because the others stayed the same, you could see how she changed even more.
How is it possible to read this book and not be scared to step outside of the house?! If I choose this pizza topping compared to this pizza topping, which direction might my life now go?! Joking aside, I do feel the book raises questions about the significance of our decisions - big and small - that are best not dwelt upon for to long. I could easily be rendered frozen and entirely indecisive if I absorbed the lessons of this book too closely.
Lynne: Does that feeling of de ja vu, that we all sometimes feel, have some significance? What if we could understand why we sometimes feel like we have been/seen/done something before? If we understood the "signs" could we influence our future? Is our fate sealed, or can we re-make it? I have so many questions. I wish we were all in the same room so you could answer them for me.
Lara: Funny - I love reading this book and thinking about the twists and sliding doors...but not for too long. It becomes counter-productive in a hurry when its about you. You are where you are - now how are you going to make it better, etc. Still it makes for great reading and for me one of the most enjoyable reads of the bookclub.
When I grow up, could I pleased own a house like Fox Corner? Totally enamoured with the idea of orchards and cats and snow and log fires...
Lynne: So, who was Sylvie having an affair with? Was Ursula a spy or a public servant? If neither can be answered then I'll still be happy. Great book. I better hurry up and buy the next one....what is it, Americanah?
Gen: ... however I am loving reading Americanah (hard copy!)
Lara: when are we getting together over that glass of wine? I was telling someone about the book club last week and she asked if we would ever all meet up. Fun to think about...maybe in one of our many lives ;-)! I'm also enjoying Americanah (a good and different shift, but still strong-female focused which is fine by me)....and I watched Wild on the plane to Arizona. Should I still read Wild the book? Also, today when I actually had almost enough time to read the NYTimes (Monday edition - Sunday wasn't going to happen with the girls even on vacation), I saw a book advertised called, "Cancer: The Emperor of All Maladies". Right now, I don't know about you guys, but I know WAY too many people who have been affected by this disease, so that's next on my list. Maybe if I learn more about it I will feel ever so slightly more able to deal with it. Not sure, but worth a shot. For now though, back to Nigeria!
Mel: What joy to think of us all in the one room. And I know that I am the lucky one, as I get to see most of you every now and again - Rache all the time and Sharyn this afternoon (!!!!) as her family are holidaying in Singapore. Maybe if we are still going at this in a decade we should make it a priority to arrange a book club get together! Lara - as for Wild - I thought that it was just ok. Her achievement of completing the walk is pretty great, but I thought that as a book it was pretty repetitive and a bit boring in places.